Airship Community

Bleed from Rupture

The skill states an amount of damage divided into 5 turns. While the damage amount is divided by 5 the number of turn it is apply is only 3. Makes the skill underwhelming and hard to stack against very fast bosses.

1 Like

I noticed this too, this explains why his Bleed build is so hard to juggle. Here’s a freshly applied Rupture

1 Like

dots in general are pretty underwhelming.

i think having them proc each enemy turn doesn’t really work very well. if you cant keep the bleed on them 100% on a fast enemy it’s weak and if they are too slow it’s weak.

i think dots need their own turn gauge so that if say an enemy doesn’t get a turn for a long time, they are still being hurt by the dot as well if they are moving so fast they aren’t being ticked every action and burning the charges.

this would even it out and then what could happen is poison can become a more unique effect which it needs.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I don’t think that DoTs are as bad as all that.

One of the major advantages of DoTs is that you can kill enemies without having the killing character at 0 initiative. I abuse the living hell out of DoTs on infinite arena runs since it allows Garrison to get an attack in on the next round of enemies without having to wait for his init to get back up. Of course, I highly suspect that one of the reasons that Garrison’s DoTs are so pathetic by default is that he’s got the Deep Wounds perk which increases all bleed damage by 40%. Sadly, for Garrison, Bleeds exist less so as a source of damage and moreso as a method of powering himself up (Bleed + Vicious Wounds gives you more chances to generate Overpower; Bloodthirsty allows you to generate an insane amount of Overcharge very quickly with your DoTs; etc.).

The same is true of pretty much all damage based secondary effects in Battle Chasers. For Red Monika, the damage provided by her DoTs is nothing compared to the damage she can do with Execute or Ambush so the DoTs she provides do less to increase her own damage than they do to provide the conditional triggers for other characters. For Knolan, his DoTs are more effective at generating Overcharge to enable him to use his high damage instant attacks than they are at explicitly killing enemies; on top of that, they’re also the trigger for bonus damage on a lot of his abilities, too.

The stacking of DoTs is less about maximizing DPR than it is about not feeling like you’re wasting anything by refreshing the DoT before it ends. For DoTs to be useful, you need to be fighting the same enemy for an extended period of time, which doesn’t really happen in Battle Chasers: unless they change the math a lot (by increasing TTK by an order of magnitude), even the strongest enemies can be taken out in a single round.

Imo, DoTs and HoTs (and all buffs, too, honestly) should have their own turns/speed for balance purposes. A bleed on a fast character shouldn’t end up having better DPR than a bleed on a slow character. When you take damage from DoTs based upon your own speed, a high number of actions becomes as much a liability as it does an asset. It’s not like we penalize characters for having a high crit rate.

I can, however, understand why they didn’t do this. When everything has its own timer, it can get really complicated and hard to understand. Having a large number of buffs/debuffs flying around, each with their own location in the turn order would provide so much information that it would make it hard to see the more important stuff. Some players (like me) enjoy that level of complexity and information, but many don’t. To many players, such a system wouldn’t be appreciably different from having the results be completely random. Tying the progression of effects to turns makes it a lot simpler to see and understand, even if it’s not particularly balanced.

2 Likes

other then that being turn based can make it odd to balance i can see. in ATB systems in ff the DoT and HoT effects worked out well for the most part(ffix was a problem because your dot and hots are effected by speed, not a good thing lol)

btw idk what DPR AND TTK mean. lost me just on that.

DPR = damage per round; the turn-based equivalent of DPS (damage per second)

TTK = time to kill

thanks.

yeah TTK atm is not good, especially on bosses where it’s very low. working on some feedback and this one of the areas where i think they should be able to fix now.

maybe DoTs and HoTs can change from the effected’s turn to just turns in general so that no matter what stats there are it’ll always be consistent. So reduce the damage per tick and increase the stacks to account for it. This can also apply to other effects that usually are pretty short lived.

They can be good, but are extremely situational. If you are able to stack DoT abilities on hasted enemies they melt pretty quickly.

Ultimately, the design of DoTs has several problems; the damage they do doesn’t scale well enough to be worth over normal attacks unless the target has so many hit points you can build 2-3 stacks, DoTs do not benefit from the character’s Crit or Haste stats, and if the target gets slowed or stunned, their DPT drops even further. Given how much Garrison/Sonya benefit from Crit, there’s little reason to use them over regular attacks.

IMO, there’s two ways they could address this - DoTs tick on the caster’s turn, or give them their own gauge that just tracks DoT / timed debuff procs. These would also help avoid edge cases like getting hit with Chi Strike while casting a long spell and immediately eating the damage when your cast goes off.

As an aside, I really wish characters with DoTs had a perk/ability that let their other attacks refresh DoTs. With Rupture and Sting only lasting 3 rounds each, you can’t do anything else without them dropping off.

Getting back on topic, what we were talking about in the original post is a straight up bug - it says X damage per turn over 5 turns, but it only ticks 3 times, so it’s only doing 60% of the stated damage.

You need deep end perks in order to allow DoT/HoTs to benefit from Crit (and they’re specific to the DoTs a character naturally applies), and the way that DoTs “naturally” benefit from Haste is in their stacking (also, as a turn-based rather than real time game, it’s not like characters have attack strings that they need to use that end up having clipping issues with Haste ticks).

Callibretto can have his HoTs crit with Nature’s Guardian (100 point Mastery for Nature), Garrison can have Bleeds crit with Vicious Wounds (20 point perk in Swordsman), Monika can have Poison, Ignites, and Bleeds crit with Debilitator (20 point perk in Skirmisher), and Knolan can have Ignites crit with Combustion (20 point perk in Elemental).

My problem with the critting DoTs/HoTs moreso comes from the fact that, without these expensive perks, their numerical effects are explicitly worse on a 1-for-1 basis than straight damage effects. It seems strange that you have to wait until the midgame (or NG+) and then spend a lot of perk points to close the gap, when the effects in question are already inferior to straight damage dealt because you’re having to wait to see it.

While Haste indirectly benefits DoTs because you can stack them up a little easier, the amount of ticks (and thus actual damage over time) is still determined by the enemy’s Haste stat and whether or not they cast a spell, which is really weird. I’ve had situations where an enemy does a Very Fast spell, thus eating 2 ticks and forcing me to renew it with my next action or it’ll fall off.

I’m only level 19 on my first playthrough so I haven’t seen all the perks yet. The fact that it’s granted by a high level perk is problematic - it should just be baseline, and the perk be a bonus like “crits refresh and add a stack of the DoT/HoT”.

But yeah, the only reason I use Sting is for the extra Overcharge, and Firebolt to let Alumon proc Blood Boil. There’s no reason to stack DoTs when I’m stacking 60-90% slow from Chill as well.